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High Tech, Higher Ed, and the New World Order:
Interview from Lawlor Review

For more than two decades John Seely Brown, Chief Scientist of Xerox and former director of its Palo Alto Research Center, has contributed ideas and innovations to the high tech revolution. But Brown’s contribution far exceeds what one might expect of a Silicon Valley scientist. Yes, he has worked on the cutting edge of microelectromechanical systems and intelligent software agents, but equally important has been his contribution to a broader understanding of the nature of human learning.

Brown was a co-founder of the Institute for Research on Learning, a non-profit institute for addressing the problems of lifelong learning. A prolific writer, Brown has recently co-authored a new book, The Social Life of Information, published in February of 2000, which addresses how the virtual world of the Web might be joined with the physical world — the classroom, the walk across campus, the countless social ways in which we learn — to create the best learning environment possible.

The recipient of numerous awards, and an active member of more than twenty university and corporate advisory boards, Brown is prized highly for his insight into how rapidly accelerating technological innovation shapes society, and how cultural institutions, especially educational institutions, must adapt to welcome and participate in a revolution, which, just as electricity once did, will transform the world.

Lawlor Review :  
  You have said that “It is our children who will teach us the new world order.” What is the new world order?

JSB: 
 

The essence of the new world order turns on the notion of being willing to constantly learn, to learn through radical experimentation, and to learn by not being afraid of looking silly. We must be willing to make errors, step back and reflect on those errors, and even find humor in our errors. The challenge is also to find patterns, to seek the patterns in the novel ways that society and technology interact. The new world order requires us to be willing to construct fresh conceptual lenses through which we make sense of the world around us. When a child comes into this world, that’s exactly what he or she does. It is the sense of embracing the unknown, of not being afraid of it, but being curious about it. Of course, this is what every new age is about, but it is now increasingly important because of the accelerating pace of change of nearly every aspect of the world around us. We need to celebrate the curious child in each of us.


LR:
 
  Is it not so much that this hunger for knowledge is new, but that the participation in the making of knowledge is new, especially at a younger age?

JSB:
 
  Absolutely, and also that the boundary between production and consumption of knowledge has been blurred. In the past we thought that there were the authorities who produced knowledge: teachers, professors, researchers, and so on, and then there were the students that consumed knowledge. There was a clear boundary between them. But in today’s world increasingly we are both producers and consumers. For example, on the Web, you buy a book from Amazon, and then you end up writing a small review of that book. This review is then ranked, or judged, by other buyers and readers, according to its helpfulness. There is a constant cycle between production and consumption, and that’s just one trivial example.

LR:
 
 

At the Palo Alto Research Center, you’ve hired teenagers as researchers to study how they learn. How are today’s young people different from previous generations with respect to learning? How has the internet affected the way they learn?


JSB:
 
 

There are many differences, but here are three principal ones from my perspective: The first has to do with the increasing use of imagery. Today’s students expect multimedia where there is a rich interplay between the visual and the textual worlds or between the visual and musical worlds. They also expect visual simulations where they can tinker with the model and see what happens. In of the really wonderful properties of Web is that it honors multiple forms of intelligence—abstract, textual, visual, musical, etc, in ways that no prior technology ever has!

The second has to do with the willingness to link, lurk to various virtual communities of interest and then to enter the conversation or try things out on their own.


LR:
 
 

What you call a “bias toward action.”


JSB:
 
 

Yes. And to not be embarrassed if something doesn’t work or if they ask a stupid question. Indeed, this might even set the stage for a new kind of cognitive apprenticeship—apprenticing to a virtual community of practice.

The third has to do with an expanding the concept of bricolage, the ability to find fragments of what has been done in one context, to lift them out of that context and bring them into your own context and use them in a new way. On the Web, a bricoleur is someone who not only has the ability to navigate, to discern, and to judge, amidst the variety of resources, but then to tinker with what he or she finds and use it for a new purpose. So instead of working from abstract principles, a bricoleur uses a more concrete type of reasoning — concrete even in the abstract practice of writing code. Now, one ‘borrows’ chunks of code done by someone else and modifies them accordingly to make them work in your particular context. What you really find happening, is that through bricolage young people are finding effective ways of tapping the creative expression of the community, and they take more seriously, though they don’t think of it this way, standing on the shoulders of the giants before or around them. One beautiful, simple example of this is the whole open source movement that created Linux—an incredible achievement done by thousands mostly in their spare time. Although this example has received world recognition, there are many smaller efforts where students use fragments of video clips, text, etc to compose new works or where students, for example, combine measurements of aspects of the local ecology to create a global picture of some ecological trend.


LR:
 
  Could you explain more about the open source movement?
JSB: 
 

The open source movement around Linux has been going on for about ten years and has lead to the building of an operating system that challenges the preeminent power of Microsoft. In fact, a high percentage of the servers used to run the Internet today run this particular operating system. It has been built by volunteers who accrue a form of social capital rather than financial capital. These volunteers are distributed around the world and used the Internet to share their code, to comment on (and improve) each other’s code and to then to integrate it all together. It was very much a self-organizing social system facilitated by the Internet. Many of us hope that this same kind of spirit can actually be used to create high quality educational material on the Web.


LR:
 
  You describe young people today as having the ability to “multiprocess.” They’re on their cell phones, listening to music, and surfing the Web simultaneously. Does this diminish their ability to attend to only one thing closely? Are the Web and other new technologies influencing the very nature of concentration?

JSB:
 
  I don’t think anyone has definitive answers to those questions, though some of the new advances in neuroscience may enable us to answer them more scientifically. Having said that, I see very little indication that students can’t still focus on one thing in depth and with intensity. Let me give you one example. Consider what a youngster does when he or she snowboards. When you’re snowboarding, you’re totally committed, immersed, and one hundred percent of your attention is there. You’re in a state of flow. Nothing else is going on in your mind. You are completely engaged! Hmmm, so apparently nothing has hindered today’s kids from being able to do that.
More than ever these kids are capable of attuning to, as opposed to attending to, all kinds of informational streams. In fact, we all use our subconscious minds to be attuned to our context—we just don’t realize it or exploit it, explicitly. One purpose of attunement is to prepare the mind for a very fast context switch, and so we may also want to ask: are these kids learning or practicing how to switch contexts very quickly while keeping their baring? If so, they are actually acquiring what a key survival skill for being a CEO. The irony may be that today’s kids may be being trained to be top executives without ever having to get their MBA.

LR:
 
  You’ve written that it takes time to discover the “inherent capabilities of a new medium.” In what ways are Web-based classrooms pushing past the boundaries of traditional classes? What methods have yet to be adapted, but might be predicted or seem possible?

JSB:
 
  The most important thing to realize is that we have barely scratched the surface of what distance learning might really mean. We’ve begun to see some interesting examples on the Web. The Open University of England has experimented with issues of distance learning, where distance learning means as much social distance as physical distance. How do you design classes for people who can’t afford to take off time to go to school full time? How can a student have both a productive work life and an academic life? What is so necessary right now is that we move into this Web-based learning with a truly open mind. We must realize that we need to be experimenters, and that we must try out an ecology of ideas, and to realistically reflect on what is working, what isn’t working, and why. We need to be sensitive to the fact that a tremendous amount of learning on campus happens on the campus but outside the classroom — in study groups, in discussions around lunch, in walking out of class and so on. This social participation facilitates the social construction of understanding. It scaffolds and supports the individual’s interpretation of the information exposed in the classroom. The constructivist theory of learning, usually applied uniquely to the individual, à la Piaget, also applies to the social construction of the individual’s understanding. Although the Web can be a tool that supports these interactions between individuals I don’t believe it can completely replace them. In any case, physical space certainly helps to support richly textured social space.

LR:
 
  Has the Web changed the atmosphere of campus life, and life in the academy, in other more intangible ways?

JSB:
 
  The Web is a way to leverage the physical with the virtual, and the virtual with the physical. What Paul Duguid and I discuss often in our book The Social Life of Information is: how do you bring these two worlds together? Not to have one replace the other, but to have one complement and amplify the other. I was talking recently with a professor at the London School of Economics, and he was complaining about the number of student questions he has to answer online. I was surprised, and I asked him if he had considered that those questions and answers ought to become a supplementary database itself, where students can browse both the questions and answers, and this becomes a new kind of complement to what is taught in the class. In the past, the instructor would answer questions in class (or grade a paper), but then these efforts would float out into the ether and be lost to others. Again, I often find the questions and sometimes the answers the most interesting part of a talk. Preserving and leveraging them could be as important as the lecture, itself.

LR:
 
  How might online instructors use the internet to avoid the kinds of misunderstandings that can result in the absence of face-to-face interaction, in the absence of body language, or other non-verbal cues?

JSB:
 
 

This is why a complementary structure is so valuable. If the net is being used to extend what is already happening in class; then, instructors and students are back in contact perhaps every other week, and these physical meetings correct the misunderstandings that might have emerged in Web-based meetings.


LR:
 
  But what about classes where instruction takes place solely online, with no required student-instructor face-to-face meetings?

JSB:
 
  The various ways we combine the two teaching methods that will make the real difference. As I mentioned above, much of what we learn happens outside the classroom. If we are limited to just virtual learning, then serious effort must be given to supporting the informal. Also, we must be careful in what certification comes to mean for a completely virtual university degree if much of what a student learns—such as points of view rather than just facts, theories and concepts—get developed through all the informal contacts one experiences on the campus. We, in our book, are not saying that it can’t happen but we try to lay out just how subtle yet powerful the social basis of learning can be.

LR:
 
  So are there applications of internet technology inappropriate for higher education?

JSB:
 
 

The simplistic view of distance education — of packaging material and simply spewing it forth over the net — as a way to make learning more ‘cost effective’ is very dangerous. There is also a corporate history of trying to hype distance education as the solution to all our learning challenges that’s equally dangerous. There is also a sense on many campuses, by many university presidents, that the train has already left the station, and that if they don’t get on real quick, they’ll be left out in the cold.


LR:
 
  However they get on.

JSB:
 
  Right. There is a belief that if they don’t act now, they will be left behind permanently. That’s dangerous, because it precludes serious debate and dialogue as to how to effectively use this technology, and it works against my prior statement that we are in an era of radical experimentation, and we must enter it with an understanding that experiments fail, and we must accept the failures along with the successes and learn from both. We can’t look for some simplistic version of the holy grail. The concern can’t be driven solely by the bottom line, or we’re in a danger of creating a new kind of digital divide where those who can afford twenty thousand dollars a year in tuition will receive first class educations on real campuses, and those that can’t will get second class educations on virtual campuses. The challenge is to find a way to bring these two together and give everyone exposure to both on and off campus learning. That may also provide a much more cost effective use of a university’s facilities.

LR:
 
  Because this new way of learning is changing, and will continue to change students, how do teachers and higher education professionals have to change to better serve them?

JSB:
 
  They must be more willing to experiment with new ideas about learning and must be willing to really “look around” and see how students, today — play, interact and learn. Denial must be shelved.

LR:
 
  More than thirty years ago, the fiction writer Flannery O’Connor said that ours is the first generation in history to ask what our students will tolerate learning. Has students’ ability at bricolage increased their autonomy even further?

JSB:
 
 

One of the reasons why this period we’re in now is truly unique in the history of civilization is that, for the first time, students, even young kids sitting around the dining room table, are in some respects masters of things that their parents need to know.

The whole notion of authority has shifted from being one way to being situated. It used to be that the parents were the undisputed authority, and the kids were the recipients of that authority. Likewise, in the universities professors were the authorities, and the students the recipients. In today’s world, the notion of authority is more like a role that often migrates, depending on the topic.


LR:
 
  Perhaps it’s analogous to the immigrant experience, where children master their second language by age six, and their parents struggle greatly with fluency and look to their children to interpret the new world to them.

JSB:
 
 

That’s the precise analogy I use.


LR:
 
 

Really? Well, how about that.


JSB:
 
  Yes. In the case of immigrants, the kids know things that the parents need to know in order to survive. It makes for quite an interesting, different dynamic in the family. It means that for certain things the kids are the authority, and for other things the parents still maintain authority. And today, the second language is apt to be the language of the Web.

LR:
 
 

As colleges approach prospective students, how must they account for this authority shift, for this leap in active participation by the students. Now, college Websites offer virtual tours, and real-time chats, but in what other ways might colleges use technology to invite prospective students to “link, lurk, and learn”?


JSB:
 
  I’d like to look at the flip-side of that question. I think one of the best opportunities for Web technology in higher education is to continually involve students after they graduate. In four years on campus, students build all kinds of social and intellectual connections with other students and faculty. The question is: how do you extend that rich ‘knowledge’ fabric, built over four years, into the future life of the students and the college? These graduates can use the Web to engage in constant, lifelong learning, and contribute to and learn from both former and present faculty, alumni and new students. Colleges should not only use the Web in imaginative ways to build alumni networks, but they should encourage graduates to contribute their insights and experiences, to better understanding what is needed to cope in a rapidly changing world. The question is how do you invite these graduates to link, lurk, learn and to contribute, so that they, in a sense, never really leave. These alumni then form what we call a “community of interest,” a community of individuals grounded in both their shared experiences while they attending the university and in their current (professional) practices. This community could also interact with the community of current students and (possibly) with prospective students. The idea is to build and support a strong mixture of communities and possibilities, to invite peripheral participation, to extend the physical, social, and intellectual atmosphere of the campus, through the virtual, so that students can have the best of both worlds. Prospective students can observe this rich environment in action, and at the same time, have a way to participate in it, a forum to ask questions and receive answers. This becomes another kind of campus visit and expands the whole notion of a virtual tour.